In this podcast interview with Andrew Kirkley, I share how to handle uncomfortable conversations without fear, stress, or fallout. From proven models to simple mindset shifts, this episode gives you the tools to deal with what most people avoid.
This is perfect for leaders, managers, and anyone who’s had that conversation circling in their head for far too long.
Why we avoid difficult conversations at work
Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Academy World podcast. And today, I’m delighted to say I have Nicola with me and we’re going to be talking about difficult conversations in the workplace. Um, so, anyhow, welcome Nicola.
Lovely to be here. Thank you, Andrew. Appreciate the opportunity because I think difficult conversations are, uh, often avoided in the workplace. And I can remember many a staff survey when they did the employee engagement, where employees would say, the manager’s not dealing with the issues, and it would come up time and time again, and it was because difficult conversations were being avoided.
Well, I’m sure that all our listeners and I certainly have had experiences where people, um, don’t say what they’re thinking or they avoid what they’re thinking. And actually what tends to happen, things just get worse.
Yeah, they definitely do. So what you’ll often see is there’s a fear of conflict or most obvious reason. And what I see when I do my training is that people avoid conversations because they’re worried about how the other person is going to react. And that seems to come out as a top fear most of the time.
And I can. I can understand it because we blow it up in our minds. We. We think, think beforehand, all the worst scenarios, and then actually, when you go in, nine times out of ten, it’s nothing like you imagined, is it?
No. So, how do you make, an environment somewhere where people feel that they can say appropriately what they’re thinking or to be able to have conversations which they feel is uncomfortable?
How to plan the difficult conversation
So the first thing to do is to plan out that conversation before you even, you know, go into the conversation. And the. The best model I know for that is AID.
A for Action. So you work out what actually you want to talk about, what are the actual things that you’re seeing?
And it can’t be personal. It’s got to be specific behavioUrs that you’ve seen or specific performance. So you start by writing that down. Never do more than two or three examples because then you overwhelm a person. They just don’t absorb it and they actually switch off. And having had that happen to me, I can tell you you definitely do switch off.
And then the I is impact. So what has the actual impact been of the behaviours or the performance that you’ve had happen? Because when people can relate to that, they’re more likely to absorb that lesson.
And then D is development or desired behaviour that you want going forward.
So you use that to then work out kind of what steps you’d like them to take. But what you do is that is just a prompt for you. When you actually go into the conversation, you use it as a discussion point because clearly if we just tell people what to do, they’re not going to do it.
They’re gonna, they’re gonna rebel quite naturally. So what we need to do is work with them to collaborate together. Which is one of my key messages to everybody is collaboration is a uh, win, win. It’s when you’re telling people or even when you’re compromising, you’re not winning. Compromising. Somebody’s losing something and they feel really upset about it.
So if you can go in with a collaboration type mindset, you’re going to make much more inroads.
How to manage your emotions
Okay, so does it matter if this, the guidelines you just gave us is used for say a manager to worker or worker to manager or colleague to colleague or whatever. It doesn’t matter. Does it apply for everyone?
Yeah, anybody can use this model. I mean I’m seeing a lot of clients at the moment who have issues with their manager. So they can use this model to still design what the conversation is going to be around and how to start the conversation. I’ve also had a lot of business partners who’ve had the similar thing and again they’ve used the model as well.
So you can use it in any scenario, peer to peer. Yeah, because it just helps you, you know, design that conversation and then go in with the right attitude.
So human nature says that you know, when someone annoys you or um, triggers you somehow the temptation inside you is to react there and then almost, and almost to walk away is a sign of weakness. It doesn’t pay. What is the general view and advice?.
So mine would be to wait till you’ve cooled down. You can capture on paper all your thoughts because you know that will help you start to process it and diffuse it. Do some deep breathing. We have a lot of people, who go that’s kind of woo woo.
But actually breathing properly is, is essential for our health. And it’s interesting because just sidetracking slightly but because I think this is an important topic as well, is that I had asthma and I got sent to an asthma physio and she said to me, (I was still working corporately at the time), you’re breathing up here, you’re really shallow.
It was quite an experience, because she taught me how to deep breathe into my stomach and how to noticed when things were getting to me and I how was going into my shallow breathing. So when I was stressed, when I was angry and I really became aware of it.
But it was quite an eye opener because in that session with her, I actually burst into tears. All these tears came out because all the stress I’ve been carrying, were let out by the deep breathing. So deep breathing before, if somebody’s making you mad, deep breathe or concentrate on your fingertips and rub them together and just concentrate on that to be very mindful or look at a picture on the wall and really study it because it distracts your mind and starts to bring the emotions down.
Your state of mind for difficult conversations
If you’re ever going to have a conversation, which you feel uncomfortable, I’ve always suggested to people that they never have a conversation unless you feel comfortable in the sense of – When I say comfortable, I feel like you as an individual, are in control. So, so you’re not rushing against the clock and you know, you’ve had a drink and a soft drink obviously, but whatever it is. But you are in a calm state as possible.
Otherwise don’t actually have that conversation you’re feeling uncomfortable with.
Exactly. And I think, yeah, and I think it’s really important that you allow enough time. You don’t actually know. In some of the cases that you’re talking about, you might get dropped a bombshell or something you didn’t know about. So you need to make sure that either side of the meeting you leave a bit of a gap so that if it overruns, you’re okay.
I think that’s really important because then again, like you said, you don’t feel rushed, you don’t feel like you’re really on the spot and you need to finish it then. And there’s. It’s really important that you realise that this conversation is important to not just you, but the person that you’re talking to as well.
So, I’ve been in many meetings, I’m sure everyone else has, where, you know, there’s other people in the meeting who, who want to say something or they said they’re going to say something, but then they never say it. And so what, what is the advice on how to deal with those scenarios?
That is a good one. Um, I used to do trade union rep, interestingly.
Okay.
And often people would say to me, we want to bring this up and we want to bring this up, but they would never actually bring it up, so they would find me. So I had to be really clear on what my boundaries were. So if somebody’s not going to bring bring it up, then there’s not a lot you can do unless you’re going to look at a different way to get them to open up.
And I’ve had a recent case like this where we knew there were issues that were brewing, but the person wasn’t bringing it to the table. So what we’ve actually gone and done is an employee engagement survey so that we get it out there and we can see what the overall view is.
So you, sometimes you have to think creatively. Sometimes you have to think, am I actually coming across the right way? Do they feel safe opening up to me? And maybe that’s the issue. A really good model to use to create psychological safety is the SCARF model. So there’s the status and that’s about our importance to each other.
So it’s about making people feel valued and recognised. So, you know, talking about their part of the team and how they contribute would constitute that. Then you’ve got certainty. So that’s about being able to predict the future. So if somebody goes in and they feel like they’re unsure and goodness where’s this going?
They’re going to really clam up. So you really need to make it as open and as honest as possible in a way that they’ve got a voice too. And then you’ve got autonomy. So their sense of they’ve got control. Because when we go into a meeting and we don’t feel like we’ve got any control, we almost withdraw.
And then relatedness. So if you can relate to each other better, then you start to build the trust. So it’s thinking about how you can relate to each other. So you could say something like, if you’re working on a project, you both want the same aim. You can bring that in, and that starts to bring in that relatedness.
And then lastly, fairness. And this is a really good one for me because this is one of my top values, is that fairness. You know that you’re being fair to the person, you’re being fair to both of you and being fair to the business. And you need to demonstrate that as well, in the things that you say.
And when you do that, you start to create that safety. So people want to open up and it’s hard. You have to work at it. And you will get it wrong sometimes. I’VE been there, I’ve got conversations wrong, but as long as you learn from it, that’s fine.
The business aspect of difficult conversations
Okay, So, I mean, from a business point of view, I can think of a number of people I’ve worked with, senior people in my times. We said, look, look, we’re not social workers, you know, we’re in business. Just, just say what you’re thinking. And we haven’t really, haven’t got all this time for all this.
Well, I know one would call it fluff. Just say it. What’s your thought process with when you’re working or you’re. You’re communicating with someone like that?
So, that’s fair enough. I totally get it. They’ve got a business. At the end of the day, your goals, your vision, what you’ve got to achieve for the client is really important. But if you can relate the impact to what’s happening in the business, in the team, with the client, then, then that’s fine.
That AID model will work exactly with that because you’re talking about purely the facts, you’re taking the emotions out of it and you’re directing people to understanding why it needs to change by discussing the impact. And I think a lot of people don’t discuss the impact. They don’t talk about what the consequences are of their actions.
And if we start talking about those, people become clearer and realise why.
I mean, we’ve talked about the person and people speaking out there, but what’s the business benefits of actually going, going through this journey and ensuring we’ve got an environment where people can talk or however you want to define that.
Yep. Well, if people aren’t talking, they’re usually in huddles or they’re usually talking behind closed doors, which affects team performance for a start. So stopping that in the tracks is really important. And in fact, I’ve got a video coming out shortly around this exact scenario, because I had a team member, a manager who had her head down all the time and wasn’t noticing that her team were actually in huddles complaining about everything.
So we had to have a conversation around how she needed to deal with it. So you’ve got that for a start. You’ve got this thing around workplace tension and culture. So the atmosphere when nothing is dealt with becomes really toxic and people then leave as a result. So you’ll see a higher turnover when conversations aren’t happening.
And that’s really important. You’ll have higher sick absence as well. So it’s really important that you look at what’s going on in your business, look at your retention, look at your sick absence, unexpected absence, what’s going on? What’s that telling you? And if you’re seeing and it’s increased, then you need to do some work around it and find out what’s going on.
Yes. This just reminds me of a podcast I did a few weeks ago with a lady called Sandy Goddard, who, who also. Well, she was, she was talking, um, about the mission and the culture of a business. So it’s different to, to, to what you’re talking about.
But actually they’re really connected, aren’t they?
Yeah, they are, they are. And, and if things are left unresolved, Then disconnect, discontent happens and people switch off. Uh, quite a few years ago I went. Into a GP’s practice and there were issues around that. No conversations were happening, problems were being escalated and left and nobody was talking about them.
And all the employees felt devalued. And as a result of all of that going under the surface, what had happened was that they were near to closing down because they just weren’t hitting their performance goals that they needed to hit. And it was, you know, really serious stuff.
So what we did was we painted the picture of what the ideal world looked like, where they were now and what were the blockers so we could start that conversation going and get them moving to where they needed to be. And a lot of it was around communication and conversations.
And that was quite enlightening to see. And so they realised one of their things was that some people knew what was going on and other people didn’t. So again it goes back to communication and conversations.
How I can support you in your workplace
So I think this is a great time actually, therefore, just to talk about what support you can provide. Because so far you’ve talked about helping people have obviously come to you privately because they’ve got a scenario in workplaces. You’ve also talked about business owners who have come back to you to get support.
And you’ve also talked about some group support, so, how do you support, what’s the service you provide to help people with this or companies?
So I have a variety of things. I have a making difficult conversations easier course which comes with a membership for a year so they get monthly call where they are like a sugery where they can come in and talk about the issues they’re having. I have the Managers Academy which is for new and accidental managers, particularly aimed at small employers who probably haven’t got those resources in place.
So it takes them on a journey of how to become that manager who gets the results that you want for the business and also makes the manager feel um, with their well being, better. So I’ve got that, that’s again a monthly membership, £37 at the moment. I want people in there because my passion is just to help small employers grow and develop.
Let me just. I know you’ve got other services there Nicola, but let me just ask you about that. So let’s pretend um, you’re pushing your way up to career and you’ve been very successful in whatever job you’re doing and then you become a manager. Now becoming a manager is a very different place to not being a manager.
So are you saying that that subscription service you offer there, that if someone’s becoming a manager and they just want someone who I’m going to say is totally third party, where you can just talk about your feelings, that’s why you would join a group like that.
Yeah. It actually takes you through a journey of, say you were a small employer, you’ve just set up your business, you decided to take on employees, or you’ve got some managers you’ve just started and you’ve put a manager in place and they’ve always done the actual job and not done the managing.
What it does is it takes them on a journey about building their vision and their mission, the behaviors they expect. Because it’s really important that you get your expectations, your boundaries and your values in very quick so people know where they stand and know what’s expected. So it starts you on that journey and then it takes you into the realms of setting up training.
Interestingly, a story for you today is unfortunately, I’ve had a prang in my car. Well, I wasn’t even in it. A coach hit it, but we won’t go there. And, uh, I took it into the body shop place to ask them for a quote. And the person that we were waiting with was huffing and puffing and going on.
It was a Monday morning, he’d just come back from a week’s holiday and he was really struggling with the workload he’d got. And he said, oh that man over there, he can do some of the work but he can’t do it. And, that girl over there, she can’t do any of it.
So I gave him one of my valuable tips, which was about how to set up training so that you don’t even have to do it as the person. You get somebody else writing up what is involved in the process/task and they’re doing it while they’re learning on the job. And then you’ve got your processes written out.
It was quite funny because he just glazed over and it was just like he wanted to stay in that victim mentality. Um, which was really interesting to see. But for any normal employer who wants to make sure his business is running really, really well, he could use that section of the managers academy to get training up and in place.
It’s got about delegation, it’s got about difficult conversations. And what also happens is that, um, I’ve just upgraded the membership as well, so that they will get a fortnightly surgery call plus a monthly training call, as group.
And then if I feel that there is a need and I’m seeing a recurrent problem, I will do additional training to go in the managers academy. So it’s very much about. I’ve given them the basics and then if I find they need anything else, here it is. I will do you something.
And I do that with my one to one clients as well.
Sure. When you say come in, I’m assuming you mean, you know, if you’re not local to you, you can do a zoom call or some kind of online zoom.
It’s fine, it’s all virtual and it’s the surgery calls will be. They can come in if they want to. They don’t have to. It’s just a pop in call. It’ll just be open for an hour for anybody to come in.
Okay. And so they’re the two, I’m gonna say, ongoing courses, support networks, you do. How else can people utilise and learn from you?
How DiSC helps with Difficult Conversations
Okay. So, I have a catalyst conversation programme, now six sessions. The first one is DiSC. So we do your DISC assessment which tells us then what your strengths are, what your communication styles are and then any blind spots that you’re probably not aware of or perhaps in some cases I see that they are perhaps aware but have not realised the impact it’s having.
And so it takes you through that journey and then it also takes you through. We look at people that you’re particularly reacting with and where we think they sit on the DiSC profile even though they haven’t done the actual assessment. And then it shows you how to have conversations with them, how to build better working relationships with them.
So that’s how it starts. And then we talk. We then go through two further sessions looking at the conversations that people need to have and what they’re struggling with. They get full structures, templates. and then like I’ve got one lady who’s still working with me and we’ve evolved from there and we’re now looking at things like a CV for a career.
And we’re looking at all the different conversations that she’s having and what she’s struggling with. And what I do in between is I perhaps record a little video and send it to her as a backup. Because whenever we’re in things we never absorb all of it. So it’s really important that there’s some embedding afterwards.
So I’m going to put you on the spot here. What does DiSC stand for?
So DiSC stands for four quadrants where people can be. I mean often you’ll find people have a bit in every of them but, but they will be specific in one part. So there’s dominance, influence, there’s steadiness and there’s consciousness.
So for example, I’m mainly influence but I have a bit of steadiness. All right, so I’m really outgoing, I’m enthusiastic, I’m optimistic, I’m high spirited and I’m lively but I’m also a little bit patient. I think most of the time I am even tempered.
But you’ll see you get different components sometimes, you’ll get the odd bit that comes in from others. The reports I get tell me when it doesn’t fit with the profile and we’ll discuss that as part of the session. Um, it was interesting because I did this with my daughter and we clashed quite a lot and she was consciousness.
Again, I’m not sure I’m saying this right but she was analytical, reserved, precise, private, systematic. And that’s exactly her. And so we were like opposite ends. It’s like, oh, now it makes sense. So having read how to handle her behaviour, I am able to have a better relationship with her.
So is DiSC done to learn how to as you handle someone or is it done that you can reflect on your own personality and highlight areas which either you are strong or weak at and work on either either controlling or controlling them.
I think it’s about looking inward. It’s about reflecting about yourself more than anything else and then using it to learn. So, you know, sometimes I will go through a DiSC report with a client and it will tell them things about themselves that they probably didn’t know.
And you can see almost it’s a little bit of a shock. But then as we work through it we find ways that we can accommodate this and what they need to do for the future. So one of the ones I worked with was dominant. So she’s very direct, firm, strong willed.
What she had hadn’t realiSed was that her manager was more around the team working ethos. So he’s more in influence, steadiness. And so her approach of her being direct and just getting on with it and not involving the team was really rankling with him. So when she understood that she realised how she needed to adapt slightly and she also realised on the opportunities that she was missing with her team.
So that was a really great eye opening for her.
Okay, so would you do a DiSC in recruitment?
You could do, they don’t specifically do one for recruitment but you could. What you could do is take the DiSCprofile and look for the elements that you would like. It’s interesting because I worked with one small employer who had all his teams profiles done and they were all sat in the same place in the C area and what he actually needed was more all the way around the quadrants because it was too much in one area and because you need a balance.
You always need a balance.
Conclusion
Okay, so just to do a recap. Having difficult conversations is something we all need to manage and the sooner we have them the often the better it is. But if we are going to have them, what Nichola says, remember to breathe, which is somewhat important to all of us.
So I would definitely be behind that as a way forward, but be in control, consider who you’re talking to, what’s important to them. And do a DiSC profile if you really want to understand what your strengths are and perhaps your weaknesses are. So you’re just aware and it makes you more conscious about what other people’s characteristics will be like.
But one thing I’m sure all our listeners can agree with is not having the conversation is far more damaging than um, anything else because it’s dangerous to businesses, it’s dangerous to relationships and it’s dangerous to families. So I think Nicola and I will both do a shout out, have those conversations.
Academy World is supporting businesses and is what we do here. But meanwhile, thank you very much for listening today. Nicola, thank you so much for your time.
Thank you Andrew. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about difficult conversations which is my passion, I have to say.
Brilliant. Meanwhile, listeners, we will be talking to another expert next week. And until then have a great week and look after yourselves. Goodbye now.